Forum Thermomix
Thermomix Recipes for TM5 and TM31 => Bread => Topic started by: darls on February 16, 2010, 02:22:57 am
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I am making some orders and would like to know what flours I could look at for bread-making among other baking stuff.
- Premium Bakers White Flour
- Whole Wheat Self Raising Flour
- Unbleached White Self Raising Flour
- Spelt Wholemeal Bread Mix
- Seven Grain Bread Mix
- Seven Grain Kibble Mix
- Whole Spelt Flour
- Lightsift Spelt Flour
- Lightsift Wheat Flour
- Buckwheat Flour
I am new to this kind of baking so I am pretty open to suggestions and comments about those flours. Such as what each is good for, any other uses, etc.
I only have until tomorrow to put in my final order - last min gal, that's me! ;)
Cheers with thanks!
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Hi darls,
I don't use wheat, I just use spelt, rye, barley, etc, and gluten free flours.
I never buy self raising flour, as it's easier to have one type of flour in the cupboard/freezer than two - all you have to do is add 2 tsp baking powder per one cup of flour to make it self raising.
don't bother buying buckwheat flour - buy the whole grain (make sure it's hulled) - it's very quick to grind, and grinds to a fine flour in about 30 seconds.
I wouldn't buy wholemeal flours at all - just buy the grain and grind your own, plus buy some sifted, unbleached white flour to add to it to make your bread lighter. (I use 250g spelt grain + 450g unbleached plain spelt flour to make two loaves of bread.) You'll find it cheaper to buy the grain instead of the wholemeal flour, and it's better to grind your own as you need it, as it goes rancid quickly once it's ground, especially if not kept in the freezer.
Hope that helps! :) Jo
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Darls, you might want to check what's in the bread mixes. Some have undesirable additives. So you may prefer to buy the seeds and mix yourself - that way you get the seeds you like in the quantity you like. Most of the bread recipes on here use flour not bread mix, and it might be cheaper too.
I'm just starting to add seeds to my bread to introduce it slowly to my kids (and husband), rather than have them wonder what's wrong with their bread.
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Darls I am fairly conservative with my baking of bread. I buy white Bakers' Flour, rye grains that I mill into flour and lots of seeds that I add to the bread. eg pumpkin, sesame, linseed, sunflower and poppy. I also have a ready supply of wheat grain.
I guess it depends if you have any allergies or preferences in your family. There is really no need to spend the extra any buy bread mixes.
Good luck with your order.
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Oh... thank you! It helps alot really. I am for with reducing how much to store, etc.
So what type of wheat grain do I look out for? I am happy to buy grains rather than flour.
Its all organic and some biodynamic stuff so I am not so worried about the nasty stuff in them but still I know what you mean about checking out what's in the mix.
From the list, there are:
Wheat Grain
Wheat Kibbled (Cracked)
Buckwheat Grain
Buckwheat Grain Hulled
Buckwheat Kernals
Spelt Rolled
Spelt Grain
Like some one above, I have to introduce the idea of variety in breads to my family very slowly. I love Bakers Delight's Cape Seed Loaf! But not sure what's in it! :D
Any more helpful suggestions? I think I get to order every 4 months so that means I buy some now and buy some more later in June...
Thanks again - much appreciated!
Cheers!
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I would suggest some wheat grain, some spelt grain and some buckwheat grain hulled, as well as plain unbleached wheat and spelt flours. You don't need kibbled grain or rolled grain for bread making.
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Whole grains are wonderful, but just remember they can be harmful and cause problems in the gut (and other parts of the body and brain) if not soaked or sprouted before baking etc. It is a bit of a hastle to do this but the health benefits of using properly prepared whole grains are enormous. Here is an article which will help explain:
http://www.westonaprice.org/Be-Kind-to-Your-Grains...And-Your-Grains-Will-Be-Kind-To-You.html
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Chelsea, I'm a bit confused by the article. Is it saying that we have to soak or sprout all grain so it's not harmful? Where does that leave us with bread? I must have missed something.
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I think Chelsea is talking about using whole grains unground in your bread. Once ground into flour the grains are digestible.
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Just to clarify I am referring to freshly milled whole grains that are to be used in bread and general baking. Soaking involves wholegrain flours as well as wholegrains. The same elements are still in there that can cause the problems (blocking our bodies absorbing nutrients) and need to be soaked regardless of whether they are milled into flour or in their wholegrain state. :)
Breadmaking using wholegrains or wholegrain flour really should be started the day before. The grains should be milled if desired and then left to soak at room temperature overnight in a little of the water from the bread recipe (with a teaspoon of whey - the liquid off the top of cultured yoghurt or apple cidar vinegar). It should be like a thick batter or paste. This is then added with the other ingredients the next day to make your normal bread.
I realise that this is something that we don't often hear about, but it is so important. Wholegrains should really come with a warning - they are amazing and so beneficial but only if prepared properly. :)
Here is another site which will explain it further:
http://www.passionatehomemaking.com/2008/04/whole-grains-grinding-soaking.html
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Thanks - was gone for a while, reading all about soaking grains. More stuff I had no idea about!
Am thinking I will just order whole wheat grain for now and when next order comes around I'll see and add spelt grain. But like suggested, I will just get spelt flour this time. One at a time, eh?
Thanks chelsea re soaking and such links.
I am still trying to get to the idea of soaking wheat BEFORE milling it - I am so used to it being dry before doing anything with it, kwim? Any difference in volume to bread making with use of grain and flour?
Some stated that we'd need to add more fresh milled flour to provide volume? Or am I reading it wrong? :-))
Once again, thanks!
Cheers!
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It is a lot better for you to soak the grains/freshly milled flour - I must admit I don't always do it because I forget to soak them ahead of time and am in a hurry! but it's definitely better for you. Darls, you can just soak the freshly milled flour in the water for the recipe, or if you soak the whole grains, you just grind them up in the soaking water (which should be the same as the recipe amount I think) like you would a blender batter cake.
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Yes Darls. It works well to mill your grain and then soak. I made a yummy breakfast bake this morning which involved soaking the oats overnight. I will post it soon while I can still understand my scribbles. :)
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All sounfs like a good argument for sour dough bread which stands for 18 hours over night ? I would welcome any comments.
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Yes - I've read that sourdough is excellent for this very reason. :)
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Thanks for the explanation. I've read the article about soaking grains and the milled flours too. Really interesting! I'll have to try it when I'm more organised....
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It is interesting MJ. I must admit I am taking baby steps with it all. It takes a lot of organisation to have things soaking 24 hours in advance. ;D
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The book Nourishing Tradition (http://www.amazon.ca/Nourishing-Traditions-Challenges-Politically-Dictocrats/dp/0967089735) changed my way of cooking and eating. It is my bible since 10 years. You just have to think and organize for 2 days in advance. I was allergic to walnuts. Since I soak and dehydrate there is no allergy.
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Thanks for the reminder Tabasile... I keep hearing about that book but haven't read it yet. I think it's a 'must have' book for sure and I might just have to order myself a copy today! This is a great thread... thanks for the helpful links. This kind of support is so precious.
:-*
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and I might just have to order myself a copy today! :-*
You're welcome Helene ;)
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I love Nourishing Traditions too, but I have gotten a bit slack lately with soaking things. I made the Artisan bread today (started the dough yesterday) and I think that really solves my problem of baking bread without soaking it first - I love it! It has that real 'Italian wood-fired oven' type of texture and the crust is chewy like that - yum! Apparently the longer the dough 'soaks' in the fridge the better it tastes! (Within reason, of course - I'm not sure how long before it would be bad, but I don't think it will last that long around here anyway!) I made it with about 1 third ground spelt grain, 2 thirds plain spelt flour - next time I'll try half and half. I really want a more wholegrain bread, but I don't want it so heavy no one will eat it! I think this may work well, as it's a moist dough, so maybe it won't crumble as much as wholegrain bread tends to.
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From what I understand soaking (for the health benefits) needs to occur at a minimum of cool room temperature. Nothing apparently happens when the grains/flour are soaked at fridge temperature. :)
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Really??? Hmmm... well it does soak for 2 to 4 hours first, before you put it in the fridge... I guess what you could do is soak the flour overnight in the liquid, THEN add the yeast and salt and mix in TMX, then rise for two hours, then put in the fridge... what do you think?
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I think that sounds like a very good idea Jo. Where there is a will . . . . . :). Have you added any Quirky touches (spelt etc) that you can share with us down the track? ;D
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In addition to soaking, you can sprout the whole grains.
I've done a lot of baking with sprouted grains, using them both as they are and also drying the sprouts and grinding them into flour.
This site has some excellent advice: sprouted grain baking (http://organicfanatic.blogspot.com/2008/01/homemade-sprouted-grain-bread.html)
I also have Sue Gregg's book but you really don't need it, this web site has all the info you will need.
People who have problems with digesting whole grains do much better with sprouted grains because the actual chemical composition changes and the amino acids reform into more easily digestible chains.
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I think that sounds like a very good idea Jo. Where there is a will . . . . . :). Have you added any Quirky touches (spelt etc) that you can share with us down the track? ;D
Just found the Quirky version on your blog. Can't wait to try it!!! ;D
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Thanks for the ideas Chelsea and Andie! Yes, I did one with spelt, using part ground spelt grain, and it worked well - just got to try the pre-soaking method next! I have the Sue Gregg books too, Andie - they're great! But I must admit, I've never gotten around to sprouting, dehrydrating, grinding, THEN baking! I've just done the soaking and sour dough type of breads.
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sprouting, dehrydrating, grinding, THEN baking!
In addition to soaking, you can sprout the whole grains.
I've done a lot of baking with sprouted grains, using them both as they are and also drying the sprouts and grinding them into
I store dehydrated sprouts and grind them before baking. This way they keep forever.
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The Sour dough I make sits for 18 hours at room temp. over night, does this equate to soaking? The recipe for the bread made with dried yeast is supposed to last for 2 weeks. The fridge one with sour dough is said to last for 1 week.
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I'm certainly not an expert Chookie and don't know enough about sourdough to give you an answer. Somebody else may know more. Here are some questions that may help answer your question based on what I have read so far:
Are you using wholegrain flour? If not you don't need to worry about soaking for this purpose?
Is there an acid medium present to get it all working such as cultured buttermilk or yoghurt or a little lemon juice or cidar vinegar? Normally with soaked breads just the milled flour and acid medium soak for up to 24 hours and then you continue on with the recipe (adding the yeast, oil etc)
Is there salt in the dough at the soaking stage? The soaking won't work if there is salt present.
Hope this helps a little. :)
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Thank Chelsea. that is really helpful.
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No worries. ;D
Now I need your help Chookie ;). I am trying to convert a soaked bread recipe (from Passionate Homemaking blog) that has had great reviews. I am going to reduce the ingredient amounts to 1/4 (enough for 1 loaf of bread), increase the amount of unbleached white flour to make it lighter and will try vitamin C or orange juice instead of the dough enhancer (as I'm not keen on the ingredients in the enhancer). I'm not sure what would be the best method to try though to convert it to TMX (how many rises, how long to knead etc).
Any suggestions greatly appreciated. Here is the recipe:
Homemade Whole Grain Soaked Bread
11 cups of ground whole wheat flour (you can replace 1 or 2 cups with unbleached white flour for a lighter end result)
1 cup acid medium (kefir, cultured buttermilk, or whey; for dairy intolerant you can substitute with 1/4 cup apple cider vinegar or lemon juice and 3/4 cup water)
3 cups of warm filtered water
2 cups oats
1 cup honey
3/4 cup coconut oil, or butter melted
1/4 cup raw millet, optional
1/4 cup flax seed, optional
1/2 cup water
1 tsp honey
2 1/2 Tbsp active dry yeast
1 1/2 Tbsp sea salt
2-4 Tbsp dough enhancer (I highly recommend this dough enhancer, as it works very well, but you can also replace with any combination of the following: 3 table spoons vital wheat gluten, 1/2 tea spoon soy lecithin, a pinch of citric acid (use sparingly!), and a sprinkling of ginger)
1 cup unbleached white flour or sprouted flour, if necessary
Sunflower seeds, if desired
Directions:
1. Combine the flour, acid medium, oats, honey, melted oil, millet and flax seeds. Cover and soak at room temperature for 12-24 hours.
2. After soaking, in a separate small bowl, combine yeast, 1 tsp of honey, and 1/2 cup warm filtered water. Let sit for 5 minutes or so, until fully proofed.
3. Combine the yeast mixture, soaked flour mixture, and all the rest of the ingredients in your mixer. You may need to add an additional 1-2 cups of flour. Dough should clean the sides of the mixer.
4. Knead the dough for 10 minutes until the gluten is fully developed.
5.Remove to a greased bowl and cover with a towel. Let sit until doubled, about 1 1/2 hours.
6.Punch down, turn dough over, and allow to rise until doubled again, about 45 minutes. (OPTIONAL, but preferred for best results)
7. Punch down dough and divide into 4 loaves. Roll out with a rolling pin into a rectangle and roll up into a loaf (this makes the perfectly shaped loaves).
8. Place in greased bread bans and rise again until doubled, about 30-45 minutes minutes (the best place is the oven! Just turn it on low 150-170 degrees till heated and then turn it off, prior to putting the loaves in).
9. Turn the oven on to 350 degrees and bake for 30-45 minutes. Bread is done when it is fully browned on all sides! Remove from oven, rest in pans for 10 minutes before removing from pans.
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Chelsea, what a 'challenging '' recipe. and what great fun to get it right. Think I will have to have a go ;D ;D ;D ;D.
I would knead for 5 mins. the TMX is very efficient so I would think this would be enough. However I would remove the lid after 5 mins. and feel the dough. If it feels under developed I would it another 3 mins. When you feel the dough you will have to decide if what you have got just needs more flour and is developed but wet.
If you leave the soaking flour/ grains for 24 hours, and use the cultured buttermilk, you will create a similar effect to sour dough, as it will start to ferment. This, plus the yeast should give a good rise.
I think 2 rises should be enough. you will know by how much it responds with the 1st rise. If it is energetic, then 2 will be enough, if it is sluggish then it will probably need 3. You will need to be very patient.
This recipe is very similar to one that I make with sour dough and it develops for 18 hours (overnight). It has no added yeast and produces a very good loaf. I dont soak the flour , but sometimes add precooked grain.
Hope this is of some help, but in the end you are going to have to use your own judgment,
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Thanks Chookie. I don't know if I'm quite up to this bread-making challenge just yet but will give it a go all the same. Thanks for the advice. :)
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Chelsea, I will have a go early next week. Will let you know how it goes. I will write down what I do.
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That will be wonderful - thanks Chookie. It may be the answer to a lot of our soaked bread questions. :)
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Can't wait to see how it goes! Sounds great.
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Hi CHelsea - doesn't sound too hard. Just mix the grains etc and leave overnight then next day put yeast honey and water into TM bowl and heat at 37 for 5 minutes on speed 1 or soft and add the grain mix and knead for probably 3 - 4 mins - add extra flour if it is too sticky.
I would even put it back after doubling to knead for another minute.
Good luck
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Chelsea, started the soaking yesterday so as to give it 24 hours. I did this as I didn't think that the amount of yeast in the recipe was going to be enough to lift the bread, and the extra time would allow it to ferment and therefore add extra bounce. Also it was more convenient to the activities I had on Sunday. I don't know if you have made this bread before, but the amount of liquid, when converted to a quarter, didn't seem enough . It may have been the grain I used, or it might have been that I didn't grind it enough.
However, the TMX kneading was very successful, with minor changes, which I will post later. At thw moment it is doing the first rise, after 5 mins. kneading. Will report tonight, after it is baked and sampled ;D ;D ;D
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Great work Chookie. Will be very interested in your final review! :)
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Chelsea, the end result is not as good as I hoped. It didn't rise very much in the tin,(the 3rd. rise), although the first 2 rises were good. I would suggest 1 rise in the bowl, and one in the tin. It might even be worth considering just 1 rise. Because the flavor and the crust are so good it is worth persevering.
I would soak 2 cups of flour and seeds over night, and do as Thermomixer suggests, and do the yeast bit in the TMX, and add the soaked mix, plus 1 cup of white flour and 1/3 cup of water to compensate for this flour .
Also think about the enhancer. I used orange juice ( 2 dessertspoons ), and could taste the orange. Maybe I used too much.
The white flour I used was a pre mix (Laucke), so didn't add it to the soak.
You could use the TMX in the 1st step to mix the soaking mix.(probably ::10 sec.) There didn't seem to be enough liquid to mix the grain, but I suppose this is how it should be. :-\
Final point is that the dough was quite difficult to handle, this could be because I messed around with the recipe,, or more likely the wheat that I ground up in the TMX was not fine enough.
I will have another go, but need more whole grain flour, so will have to wait until Thursday.
Conclusion....5 mins in TMX, good. 1 or 2 rises to be determined.
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Thx Chookie - looking forward to updates :-* :-*
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Thanks so much Chookie. Some very good feedback there.
There is often only a small amount of liquid in soaking recipes which is a bit surprising. It can be difficult to mix and is often like a very thick paste. My organic order is coming tomorrow with some grains so I will be able to give it a go soon with your suggestions. :)
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This bread is too good to give to the chooks, so I am going to slice it thin and toast it in the oven, and use in place of crackers or dry biscuits. We had something similar when we were out for dinner.
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Good idea - there is always something you can do.
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Interesting recipe...
But I am still boggled at the size of ground whole wheat grains - 11 cups? Eleven cups?? :-\ That would equal a lot of grains? or ...
Still haven't got a go on whole grain bread... still going through other stuff here.
Cheers!
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Darls, I made 1/4 as suggested by Chelsea. Made 1 large loaf. I want to have another go at this recipe , and have bought the flour in preparation, but run up to Easter is getting in the way so it might be 3 weeks before I get around to it. Will report back.