Forum Thermomix
Welcoming Center, Management and General Chat => Chit Chat => Topic started by: cathy79 on May 06, 2010, 08:39:53 am
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There has been some discussion (and recipes) appearing that are soaking grains/flours so I thought I'd start a conversation if possible.
It's still very new to me, so am looking for thoughts, advice and recipes.
I bought "Nourishing Traditions" and it's a huge book (dare I say overwhelming), and I'm not quite sure where to start. I've made the Banana Bread and can highly recommend that recipe. It's amazing how soaking wholemeal flour makes such a difference to the final texture.
Has anyone else got that book and could recommend some recipes? Or other similar books and recipes?
I've found a few websites that focus on this style of recipe too if anyone is interested.
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Yes, I have just got this book, & want to get into soaking grains too, which is one reason I thought the 2nd bowl would be useful. As yet I haven't read it, as I'm short of time at the moment. I love reading in bed before falling asleep, but obviously I can't read this book in bed, not your normal sized novel. LOL So yes I'm wanting to learn too.
Just tried making my first soudough starter too. I think it was OK, but it didn't seem to be that bubbly/active.The bread I made was very hard & solid. It's in the freezer, so I'm not sure how it tastes yet! But it does look a little scary!!!
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Great idea for a discussion thread Cathy. I'm reading Nourishing Traditions at the moment also. I'm not overly inspired by the look of the recipes, but I wonder if that's because there are no pictures of the food. I looked up the banana bread recipe that you enjoyed from the book and will give that a go soon.
I've been trying to make soaking grain and flour a habit, but it certainly does take some organising. Before I head to bed each night I try to remember to run through what I need to cook the next day and prepare my grains then (thankfully my kids sleep through the TMX milling). I am refusing to buy wholemeal flour (because I bought the TMX for milling fresh flour), but I have to admit that the TMX does a pretty average job at milling grain in comparison to some grain mills. I've tried a lot of wholemeal recipes but often they don't work well with flour milled in the TMX. Soaking certainly helps to combat the heavy flour problem and blender batter cooking (blending the whole grains in the liquid batter) is another way of getting around this also.
Please go ahead and post your soaking links. I love to read about soaking as it is all still new to me too. I've posted some info about soaking grains on my blog here (http://fulllittletummies.blogspot.com/2010/04/why-bother-to-soak-whole-grains.html) and have a few soaking recipes on there as well. I have found this (http://www.passionatehomemaking.com/?s=soaking) recent article on Passionate Homemaking helpful regarding adapting recipes to include soaking.
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Yes I'm interested in hearing more about this. It is for digestion purposes?? Do you soak the grain or the flour once milled??
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great idea cathy79. I got a couple of different whole grains from the family farm but haven't used them as I haven't had time to investigate the soaking ideas. Really want to be able to mill them to make bread.
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Yes, this is something that I would like to pursue but have only done once so far. For recipes like the High Fibre Craisin Bars that use rolled oats but don't really have liquid in the recipe would I soak the oats, drain &/or dry them and then mill before using in the recipe? This is part of my reason for being so hesitant about it.
When I milled my wheat for the muffin recipe I made last week I thought that the milling wasn't as great as I would have liked so maybe if I soak the wheat first next time and then blitz the mixture as Chelsea suggests I will get a better result.
I did get the first couple of Sue Gregg's Whole Food Cooking recipes and like her approach that it is a step by step process which is why she only gives out a few recipes at a time.
Looking forward to other's input in this subject as I have read previous posts about whole grains and found the information interesting and useful.
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Yes I'm interested in hearing more about this. It is for digestion purposes?? Do you soak the grain or the flour once milled??
Yes it is mainly for digestion purposes Nay. Soaking removes the phytic acid from the grain. Phytic acid blocks the absorption of minerals by the body if not removed. Soaking also improves the end product - it makes wholemeal baked goods lighter. I'm hoping to find a chance to post my soaked bread recipe (using half soaked wholegrain flour) on my blog soon.
You can soak grains or milled flour. If you are using the grains whole (like with grain porridge or cooked brown rice) then you soak them as is in water with a little acid medium (like a tsp of lemon juice or cider vinegar). If you are milling the grains into flour (like for bread or cake) then it is easiest to mill it first and then soak it in some of the liquid from the recipe and some acid medium. It isn't really "soaking" - more like making a thick paste (the soaking water doesn't need to be discarded). Most grains need a minimum of 8 hours soaking and need to be soaked at cool room temperature (I use a shelf in our bedroom). There is also a third option for soaking grains and that is blender batter baking. A good example of this is Quirky Jo's brown rice pancakes. The whole grains are blended up in liquid (including a little acid medium) and then left overnight to soak. I really like this method as it seems to mill the flour really fine in the TMX and produce light and fluffy end results. :)
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I also have the 'nourishing traditions' book but have not really got into it yet. I tend to only soak when the recipe specifically refers to it - as I am not a very creative cook ;-) - so more recipes would be great.
I am soaking all my grains for my 8mth old DS - quinoa, rice and amaranth so far. I am using Jude Blereau's new cookbook 'wholefood for children' as a guide. eg I mill organic brown rice in the TMX and soak it with lemon juice and water and cook it up into a nice creamy porridge. I have been cooking it on the stove though as not sure of the temp etc for the TMX,plus the quantities are quite small, and haven't had time to work it out yet. I love that I can mill my own baby rice flour in the TMX.
I look fwd to reading more about this.
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When I milled my wheat for the muffin recipe I made last week I thought that the milling wasn't as great as I would have liked so maybe if I soak the wheat first next time and then blitz the mixture as Chelsea suggests I will get a better result.
I made some Quirky blender batter muffins for breakfast earlier in the week (the batter was soaked overnight) and used whole spelt grains. They were fantastic - so light and fluffy. Quirky Jo's soaking recipes really are a great place to start with soaking - pancakes, berry cake, muffins, self saucing pudding etc.
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Thanks Chelsea & Cathy,
have just printed off QuirkyJo's muffin recipe and will get the batter soaking tonight. Can't wait to pick up my second bowl set next weekend when I'm in Perth, then I can start doing more soaking recipes. Will have to go back to Sue Gregg's website for more recipes.
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If you don't have a second bowl and are soaking milled flour it isn't a drama (you just have a bowl to wash at the end). Just mill the flour and tip it into a bowl. Sit the bowl on top of the scales and then weigh the liquid and acid medium in. Give it a quick stir, cover with a tea towel and leave to soak. I find that easier than weighing the liquid in with the milled flour and then having to scrape it all out after the tmx has mixed it. Rinsing milled flour from the tmx is much easier than soaked flour too. :)
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Quirky Jo has a couple of Blender Batter Soaking recipes on her blog. If you search for blender, they should appear.
This one is really nice - Blender Batter Berry Cake (http://quirkycooking.blogspot.com/2009/07/blender-batter-berry-cake-gf-df.html)
Most of the blogs that I've found do discuss their reasons for choosing this style of cooking, and there is a common Christian theme. Ignore or enjoy, whatever your preference.
The Nourishing Cook (http://thenourishingcook.com/about-2/) - Cooking all 773 recipes in Sally Fallon's 'Nourishing Traditions' cookbook before 12/31/2011 - so she reviews the recipes as she cooks them which is helpful.
GNOWFGLINS (http://gnowfglins.com/2009/07/06/grain-cooking-chart/) - this one has some great fact sheets for starting out. Lot's of useful information.
Kelly the Kitchen Kop (http://kellythekitchenkop.com/)
Like a Bubbling Brook (http://likeabubblingbrook.blogspot.com/p/resources-links.html)
And of course Chelsea, Jo and Tebasile (http://tebasileskitchen.blogspot.com/2010/05/100-sprouted-spelt-bagels.html) have contributed recipes here.
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WARNING! for the first website. My virus programme detected a threat and stopped a pop up from loading from this website.
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Yes I had the same "virus alert' shame as I thought I really want to look at that website. Are the others ok???
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I've never had that warning, so can only apologise.
Here is the PDF of the info about soaking nuts - I don't seem to have downloaded the one about grains.
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Thanks Cathy. The bread recipe on the Kelly the Kop blog looks interesting. :)
Storing whole grains is something to consider too as some whole grains go rancid very quickly if not stored properly. I now avoid self-serve grain shops and buy my grains in bulk from my organic distributor which I am hoping will result in fresher grains.
I would be interested in hearing how other people store their grains. At the moment I am buying my grains in 5kg sacks and pouring them into large ziplock bags that go into the freezer. I keep small amounts in pourer containers in the fridge and refill them from the freezer. When I researched how to store grains each website seemed to suggested something different (freezer, fridge, cupboard etc) so I decided to play it safe and keep them all in the fridge or freezer. Brown rice is something I still keep in the cupboard though. Do other people refrigerate or freeze brown rice?
If anyone is interested in reading about wholemeal flour (store bought) in comparison to freshly milled wholegrain flour, I have been researching that lately (after a question from a blog reader that I couldn't answer ;)) and have written about it here (http://fulllittletummies.blogspot.com/2010/05/filling-tummies-loving-whole-grain.html) on my blog today. :)
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Good work - on the info that you have produced (and on changing the colour scheme for old eyes like mine ;) ) :-* :-* :-*
Freezer is best if you have space to prevent rancidity.
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Good work - on the info that you have produced (and on changing the colour scheme for old eyes like mine ;) ) :-* :-* :-*
Finally people can read it all!!! ;D
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Just found this fantastic idea.
"I don’t know that I’d really call it a time-saver, but more of a “Gee, I’m glad I don’t have to wait 12-24 hours for something to soak so that we can eat breakfast today/dinner tonight” process: I freeze soaked flour for recipes before adding in the remaining ingredients.
For example, I mix up a double batch of soaked pasta dough, and freeze half of it. Soak flour and soured milk (soured w/ either whey/lemon juice/ACV, etc.), and freeze for pancakes, waffles, and Dutch babies. Then, all I have to do is thaw and prepare whatever I need (maybe takes an hour of thawing on the counter, depending on what it is) according to the “after soaking” instructions in the recipe, and it’s still nourishing AND delicious."
Original source (http://www.thenourishinggourmet.com/2010/05/cook-once-eat-twice.html)
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That sounds like a very good idea and would save me milling grains at night and risking waking the kids when I forget to mill during the day ;). I could prepare a months worth of milled and soaked flour in 24 hours (would have to be clearly labelled). I'm guessing flour soaked with buttermilk, yoghurt, water/milk and vinegar would all freeze and thaw fine?? :)
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And considering you mentioned that you freeze your whole grains already, this makes perfect sense to me. I thought you'd like that idea. I'll have to give it a go. A good job for the weekend.
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Great ideas CB79 - thanks
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I have finally got around to posting my soaked rye bread recipe (based on Isi's buttermilk bread recipe) on my blog here (http://fulllittletummies.blogspot.com/2010/05/filling-tummies-soaked-rye-bread.html). I have another recipe that is going to be posted next week that I think you will love Cathy (think chocolate ;)). This soaking thread has me so inspired!!!
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Chelsea, your bread looks fantastic! Can't wait for your next recipe.
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I have finally got around to posting my soaked rye bread recipe (based on Isi's buttermilk bread recipe) on my blog here (http://fulllittletummies.blogspot.com/2010/05/filling-tummies-soaked-rye-bread.html). I have another recipe that is going to be posted next week that I think you will love Cathy (think chocolate ;)). This soaking thread has me so inspired!!!
Good work - it looks great - what is the taste like?
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A lot like sourdough Thermomixer. My kids love it though so not too sour. :)
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I recently had success with converting a favourite recipe to being a soaked recipe. It was surprisingly straight forward, and apart from the soaking time, actually evolved into a slightly simpler recipe.
If anyone's interested, Zucchini Brownies (http://www.forumthermomix.com/index.php?topic=1985.msg44442#msg44442).
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I like the idea of soaking the grains for cooking and putting them in the freezer so they are all ready when you need them.
Does anyone have any advice for soaking rolled oats. I'm presuming you should soak the rolled oats before making porridge. I had been using vinegar but it definitely makes it taste awful so was going to give it a go with buttermilk and see if that tastes better. Do you think you could soak up a whole lot of the rolled oats and freeze that in meal sized portions to be taken out and cooked up as needed?
This is all a new area of cooking to me so hope I don't sound too dense.
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I keep meaning to read this thread all the way through and finally have - Chelsea and Cathy, you're going so well with all this! I have times when I'm very diligent with it all, and times where I'm rushing and just use fresh ground grains plus flour... When I first got the Nourishing Traditions book I found the section in the back helpful on 'Limited Time, Limited Budget Guidelines', as the time factor for all this gets difficult at times. I get frustrated with things soaking all over the place in my very small kitchen, so that's a good idea to use shelves in another room, Chelsea - as long as I don't forget they're there and let them go mouldy!!
I've printed out your soaked rye bread to try Chelsea, as I have HEAPS of rye in the freezer which needs using, and I'm having trouble with my sour dough. :-\ We still love the Artisan bread (http://quirkycooking.blogspot.com/2010/03/wholemeal-spelt-artisan-bread.html) the best of any I make, and it's not difficult to soak the flour overnight before adding the yeast and salt, then it just sits in the fridge and you use it as you need it. I use all wholegrain flour in it now - it's a bit heavy, and flatter than usual, but it's never crumbly, just chewy (which we like!). I need to go through the recipes on my blog and add the guidelines for soaking the grains/flour! Still getting to that...
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I like the idea of soaking the grains for cooking and putting them in the freezer so they are all ready when you need them.
Does anyone have any advice for soaking rolled oats. I'm presuming you should soak the rolled oats before making porridge. I had been using vinegar but it definitely makes it taste awful so was going to give it a go with buttermilk and see if that tastes better. Do you think you could soak up a whole lot of the rolled oats and freeze that in meal sized portions to be taken out and cooked up as needed?
This is all a new area of cooking to me so hope I don't sound too dense.
Roxy, I haven't tried rolled oats. But a few thoughts - what sort of vinegar are you using? I'd try apple cider vinegar. Or you could use yoghurt. I like the idea of soaking and freezing in portions. Makes perfect sense coming into winter.
Have a go and let us know how you find it. This is all new to me too.
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Hi Cathy, I tried apple cider vinegar first and it was really bad so just tried white vinegar thinking that would be better but it wasn't much better and my 15 yr old DS won't eat porridge till I change what I soak it in. Will be soaking in buttermilk tonight so will post tomorrow after breakfast.
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I tried soaking my oats in cider vinegar and found it pretty vile too Roxy. I haven't tried making porridge again to be honest. Perhaps in a couple of months my family will have forgotten the taste and be willing to try another version. :)
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Have you tried lemon juice instead vinegar for the oats ? I soak mine sometimes together with almonds, coconut flakes and cinnamon and blend it in the morning with apples and additional berries.....but it's uncooked.
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I like oats & some raw almonds soaked with water and a squeeze of lemon juice, then the next morning grate an apple onto it (skin included) and a little cream/yoghurt/coconut cream & honey - yum!
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Thanks for the idea Tebasile. Will try the lemon juice if the buttermilk doesn't work. Might help to add some cinnamon. Will let you know how I get on.
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I know this won't help you Jo (I just read on your blog about mould problems when soaking flour in the tropics), but I just wanted to let you all know that I have just started soaking my milled flours for 24 hours instead of 7-12 and the results are fantastic (my baking is so much lighter in texture). I know many people are already soaking for 24 hours though (I am slowly getting there ;)).
I am recovering today from the soaked whole grain "blender bender (http://fulllittletummies.blogspot.com/2010/05/filling-tummies-blender-bender-part-two.html)" that I did on the weekend. I must say it was rather fun (especially as DH took the kids outside to play for the arvo ;D).
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Chelsea, your blender bender sounds very worthwhile.
Re- the soaked oats, buttermilk was more palatable than the vinegar but still not liked by my DS so am trying lemon juice. If that fails too, I am told by DS that I am not allowed to try anything else, he just wants "normal" porridge.
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You've done well, Chelsea! I'm going to try that too - I think it's a great idea. I usually find overnight or a few hours more is okay for soaking in rice-almond milk with some apple cider vinegar. The buckwheat I soaked was a bit over 24 hrs, so it's no wonder it went all mouldy. :-)) It may drive me crazy having a heap of soaking dishes on the counter, but maybe I can find somewhere else to put them, like the downstairs room. It does make the baking so much lighter the longer you soak, doesn't it. As our weather gets cooler I'll be able to soak them for longer, I think.
I made the chocolate self-saucing pudding at a cooking class last night, explaining the soaking method, and they loved it! the bowl was licked clean! ;D (Well, not literally...)
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My DS2 licked our pudding bowl clean last night ;). We love your pudding recipe!!!
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Chelsea - it may well be that you have some wild yeasts helping you out with soaking. Dan Leppard says our grains/flour in Australia doesn't generally need sultanas etc to help forming sourdough starter.
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You've lost me Thermomixer. Please explain ;) ;D
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Thanks for the idea Tebasile. Will try the lemon juice if the buttermilk doesn't work. Might help to add some cinnamon. Will let you know how I get on.
You're welcome RoxyS. I forgot the coconut flakes and changed my post.
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Roxy, I haven't tried it, but this site (http://www.thenourishinggourmet.com/2009/03/soaked-oatmeal-a-filling-and-frugal-start-to-the-day.html)has quite a bit of discussion about the transition to soaked oatmeal.
Hope you can nail it.
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You've lost me Thermomixer. Please explain ;) ;D
Soaking the grains for 24 hours may allow natural yeasts on the grains to start fermenting your flour. That is how sourdough is made. Just thought that you may have some extra raising agents to make the doughs lighter?
This link may help http://sourdough.com/forum/topic/54#comment-350 (http://sourdough.com/forum/topic/54#comment-350) and http://sourdough.com/blog/sourdom/beginners-blog-starter-scratch (http://sourdough.com/blog/sourdom/beginners-blog-starter-scratch)
Clear as mud pies ?
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Thanks Cathy79. The lemon juice is much more palatable and found the site you mentioned very interesting reading so may follow her recipe and see how my DS & DH react to it. Will have to see if I can get some chia seeds. Have never used them so will be interesting to see how they affect the taste. Have some wheat grain in the fridge so will add that to today's batch of soaking oatmeal.
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Roxy, Chia seeds have no flavour, I have been using them for weeks in our bread etc and also put them on my breakfast. They are hard to come by at the moment after Today Tonight did a big story on them and Bakers Delight also doing a big promotion for their Chia Bread. Worth hunting out though ;D ;D
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I have started making chia gel and adding that to our smoothies, batters, doughs etc as it is much easier to digest than the unsoaked seeds and much more nutritious. Some people eat it "as is" instead of taking nutritional supplements (pills), but I really dislike the texture so add it to my baking and juices. I put the recipe (and my online distributor) on my blog yesterday and you can find it here (http://fulllittletummies.blogspot.com/2010/05/filling-tummies-nourishing-chia-gel.html). It is a super-easy recipe. ;D
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Thanks Kathryn & Chelsea. Will see if my friend wants to share the cost of ordering some seeds from your distributor Chelsea. Sounds like the way to go. I had bought a whole lot of seeds to make the MEMOC blend but found they went off before I used them all and adding the MEMOC to things gave me headaches so not sure which seed was to blame, or maybe I added too much at a time.
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They are amazing little seeds. My hubby and I have noticed that we have more energy (and it is sustained energy) since we started adding the gel to our daily smoothies. Our boys have always got so much energy I haven't noticed any difference there. ;)
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I have started making chia gel and adding that to our smoothies, batters, doughs etc as it is much easier to digest than the unsoaked seeds and much more nutritious. Some people eat it "as is" instead of taking nutritional supplements (pills), but I really dislike the texture so add it to my baking and juices. I put the recipe (and my online distributor) on my blog yesterday and you can find it here (http://fulllittletummies.blogspot.com/2010/05/filling-tummies-nourishing-chia-gel.html). It is a super-easy recipe. ;D
Thanks for that link - Excellent size to buy it in!! Do you get white or Black chia?? I have read there is no difference in nutritional value but I was thinking if I'm adding it to porridge etc the kids won't notice the white ones as much?
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The soaked chia is going down really well in our smoothies - no one notices at all. Now to remember to add it to all my baking as well.
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It is fantastic stuff Cathy. I used some chia gel in biscuits yesterday (cutting out some of the butter) and they worked well.
Nay I bought the black ones. I have also read that they are both the same nutritionally though. :)
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My Chia is a mixture of black and white - think it may be cheaper as they don't have to sort it?
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Just been sitting here wondering how they would sort the colours out! LOL :D
I found this graph which shows there is very little difference between the colours - as much as comparing one years crop of the same colour to next years.
http://www.eatchia.com/blackwhite.html
Chelsea do you really think 2 kg will do a year?? That sounds real good! Is it because making the gel makes it last longer??
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Since I wrote that Nay I have used a large jar of chia gel (1/4 cup of seeds) in a less than a week. 2kg is a huge amount of chia seeds, but not if you use them everyday like we are doing now.
Mine has some white seeds in it too Cathy. I wondered if the black is a mix of the two seeds and the white is just white seeds. :)
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Thanks for the info on chia - I love the texture of the gel.
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I just made another batch then. I weighed the seeds and 1/4 cup of chia weighs approx 50g. So I think you would get approx 40 batches from a 2kg bag. :)
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So that's about 40 weeks at the rate you're going through it Chelsea - so almost a year's supply. Good value.
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RoxyS - not sure where you got to with your soaking porridge trials. I've read a hint which may work.
When soaking and cooking rice, if your family doesn't like the sour taste, after soaking in the acid medium, you can drain the rice, measuring how much liquid remains before discarding it. Replace the soaking liquid with the same amount of plain water and cook.
If this solves a "sour rice" problem, it may solve your sour porridge problem.
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I was just wondering if anyone on this thread had tried making sprouted grain bread and what the recipe would be. I've looked it up and it is most interesting that you can make bread with 1, yes 1 ingredient!! :o Sprouted wheat whirled up into dough then cooked. Has anyone here tried it???
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I was just wondering if anyone on this thread had tried making sprouted grain bread and what the recipe would be. I've looked it up and it is most interesting that you can make bread with 1, yes 1 ingredient!! :o Sprouted wheat whirled up into dough then cooked. Has anyone here tried it???
Is that like 'Essene' bread? I only have seen recipes like Sue Gregg's (http://www.suegregg.com/about/Sprouted%20Breads.pdf) ones for sprouted, dehydrated grain ground into flour, then made as usual.
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Hi Nay-nay,
I use the recipe of my 100% sprouted spelt bagels and posted some pics there (http://www.forumthermomix.com/index.php?topic=3558.msg48812#new).
250 g sprouted grains are baked for 8 hours on low in a bowl in the slowcooker or 500 g for 2 hours at 125 °C on a bakings stone for 2 hours and left overnight in the oven.
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thanks so much Tebasile! i knew you would know. :-* :-*
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Wow! I have so much to learn.............................................................................
I know people use bicarb when soaking beans - would that be something that I could use instead of vinegar?