Forum Thermomix
Thermomix Recipes for TM5 and TM31 => Bread => Topic started by: patsycate on September 12, 2011, 04:40:16 am
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Hi all, since I got my TMX about a year ago and started baking my own bread I'm pleased to say that I have not bought a single loaf or bun as my own efforts have been so successful :)
I find the trick to keeping the home-made effort sustainable whilst being a busy working Mum is baking three loaves at a time (I invested in three tins) then slicing and freezing so I have a constant supply.
Only problem I have: DH complains that my bread is too heavy. It doesn't matter which recipe I use, he says they're all too heavy and not light and soft like shop-bought bread. He loves my bread toasted (Cyndi O'Meara's Bible Bread gives The Best crunch) but he doesn't like the home-made bread fresh for sandwiches/rolls.
As I don't want to use any store-bought bread improvers because I have some question marks over the ingredients I wonder what other people do/use to help bread to be lighter/fluffier/airier?
Thanks in advance for any hints :)
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Patsycate, which recipes are you using?
What flour?
do you do a double rise.?
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It's the double rise I tell you - thank goodness you are such a legend Chookie and drum it into everyone :D :D. I helped one of our new consultants with it last week. She said she couldn't get a good loaf, only rolls ... not now she gives it a second rise AND also makes sure it has doubled in size both times not going on a time for rising :)
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Faffa, how right you are. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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My top 3 are
No fuss bread (so versatile ) from. achookwoman
Cobb loaf ( great for toasting) from. juileO
Olive oil bread (soft and light) from .thermomix uk site, i made 150 rolls last weekend. no need for bread improver
ciao
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I am having the same issues with my bread. Its lovely fresh with butter but after that is too heavy and is only great toasted. I will have to try the double rise system. sometimes I am a little rushed! can somebody give me a link to the No Fuss Bread and cob Loaf - found the olive oil roll recipe ... is this ok as a loaf or only rolls?
:o ??? :-))
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i have only made them into rolls
http://www.forumthermomix.com/index.php?topic=5751.0
http://www.forumthermomix.com/index.php?topic=4253.0
double rise is the only way ;D
ciao
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This information is very useful as I am going to start experimenting with bread making and need all the help I can get. Thanks for asking the question patsycate.
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All new bread makers......I think there are two issues here. 1 . making the bread, and
2. freezing it.
Almost any bread tastes good when warm and spread with butter. The first thing is to make a loaf that is good when it has cooled down. So aim to make a loaf that still seems 'fresh' the next day. The "No Fuss" should do this if instructions are followed. Don't skimp on the rising time. A softer dough will give a more soft slice when cool. Don't cut the loaf until it is cool.
The next issue is the freezing, and different members have discussed how they deal with this in a previous Post. Freezing will dry the bread out, even if frozen for a short time. This is why I do not slice the bread when I freeze it. I also wrap the bread very well in foil. Patsycate, in your case try slicing the bread and wrapping individual serves ,for your DH in separate parcels.
Also , once you have made a good loaf, try adding 1 Tablespoon of oil to the recipe., the next time. This will keep the crumb moist.
Dede, have a go. Use either Isi's Portuguese roll recipe, and make rolls to start with and then a loaf. Or the "No Fuss" recipe. This I wrote for people just starting out. You can make either rolls or loaf.
Some members, such as Judy, now make fab. bread , with no previous experience. Once you perfect the method there will be no stopping you.
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Store bought bread almost always uses 3-4 times the amount of yeast as homebaked bread. Also they add stabilizers to make sure it can hold the structure and other chemicals to make it rise even more. The bigger bread with more air the more money they make pr/kg flour.
If your husband complains about your bread being to heave you can try to add more yeast. Store bought bread has around 100 g yeast to each kilogram flour.
I do not like the taste of that kind of bread as the taste of yeast is not very nice but you will for sure get a very light and fluffy bread.
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You are exactly right there bluesed :)
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That's all great info thanks guys. No to put it into practice. I make cheese and bacon rolls often and they are wonderful. But any other breads I make have always been just ok not wonderful. I will try again and take all this info in. Keep you posted.
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What do you mean by "double rise"?
I mix the dough, set it to rise and when it has doubled in volume, punch it down and set to rise a second time.
I then shape the dough and set it to rise again, it should double in volume, then bake it off.
If I want more flavor in the bread, after the first rise, I punch it down and put it in the fridge in a sealed container (allowing some room because it will rise a little) for a minimum or 12 hours - 18 is better.
I then take it out of the fridge, give it twice as long as normal to come back to room temp and then the second rise. Then shape, set to rise for the final time and bake it off.
For any doughs that contain a significant amount of whole wheat flour or flours that do not contain gluten, (and you are not GF) you need to add some vital wheat gluten and some milk powder to give you a lighter loaf but with a fine crumb.
You can't always go by time when the dough is rising. Some doughs take much longer to rise than others so you have to go by the feel of the dough.
If you push your finger into the risen dough and it doesn't resist or you leave a distinct dimple, the rise is full. If it springs back and feels taut, it needs more time.
You may need just a bit more water. The dough should not be sticky but should be very elastic.
A recipe that works one day may not work another because of changes in the ambient moisture in the air. Flour is affected by the humidity level in the air.
I live in the desert and I often have to add more water to a bread dough when the humidity level is low and less during the rainy season when it is high.
Right now the humidity level is high because we are in a "monsoon" weather system and the ambient humidity is over 60 % (normal at this time of the year is 20%.
I baked bread yesterday and first added only 75% of the water to the dough, then gradually added in another 10% and that was enough. If I had added all the usual amount, I would have had sloppy dough.
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Last time I made a loaf of fruit bread it took for ever to rise and I wasn't sure if leaving it for a long time was a good thing or not so I through it in the oven and it wasn't very nice at all.
Can the dough ruin if it takes a long time to rise?
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Last time I made a loaf of fruit bread it took for ever to rise and I wasn't sure if leaving it for a long time was a good thing or not so I through it in the oven and it wasn't very nice at all.
Can the dough ruin if it takes a long time to rise?
No, as long as it doesn't over-proof and deflate. If it does, don't despair, you don't have to throw it away. In fact, some artisan bakers have experimented with getting more flavor into bread by doing just this and then taking the over-proofed dough back to the bench (or into the mixer) adding a bit more water a small amount of flour and another dose of yeast.
This is mixed and kneaded well - usually 10 minutes in a regular mixer with a dough hook, 15-18 minutes if kneading by hand - and then set to rise. It may rise faster this time so check it when it would normally be half way into the rise.
Punch it down and let rise again, shape and set for the final rise and bake.
Every type of dough is different in how it rises. Some sweet doughs rise rapidly.
Some heavy doughs that contain a lot of whole grains and whole grain flour, seeds and fruit, can take easily twice as long to rise as regular bread, sometimes even longer. This is where it is important to know how the dough should feel.
I have been baking Struan bread (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/recipes/struan) ever since I got Peter Reinhart's book , Brother Juniper's Bread Book many years ago.
(I have ALL of Peter's books)
Note that in the recipe it states to let it rise for 90 minutes - I have never had success with that length of time, even in a proofing box.
It takes TWO hours for the bread to rise to the point that it has doubled in volume.
I punch it down, knead it some more on a floured board so it picks up some (up to a cup sometimes) because the dough is pretty sticky.
The second rise usually goes a bit faster but always takes well over an hour.
After shaping and panning, again it takes 90 minutes at least for them to double.
This is not a "quick" bread - for me it takes most of a day but as there are long breaks while the rising is (hopefully) going on, I can work around it.
The result is worth it.
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again loving your answers andie....would so love to pick your brain over a coffee, tea or whatever thats not important :)
oh and by double rise they meant what you said ie letting the dough rise twice to double in size before baking
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The way i read it frozzies is, let it rise twice in the bowl, then again once it’s shaped.
Oh well i have been doing wrong all this time. :(
Thanks andie :)
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Wow, really appreciate everyone's thoughtful answers :)
With the Bible Bread I make the dough in TMX but it's very sloppy so I scrape it into the tin and when it rises to the top it goes into the hot oven and bakes. This is what we use for our 'toast bread' as we know it's heavier with all the fabulous ingredients and it has a fantastic crunch. This one isn't too heavy really but we don't use it for sandwiches because we actually find it tears.
As the TMX bowl is sticky from making the Bible Bread dough I follow-up with a different recipe for a sandwich loaf as it picks up all the sticky dough from the Bible Bread and cleans the bowl out for me! I usually make the 'No Fuss' recipe but have adapted it to have roughly 70/30 wholemeal/white flour and usually a small scoop of grains/add-ins (whatever I have to-hand) to make the loaf more wholesome than just plain white. I have experimented with adding 20g macadamia oil but haven't really noticed the difference. Again I've just been popping it straight into the tin after kneading for about 6mins. After reading everyone's comments, and knowing that this dough is very taut, perhaps I need to increase the water as the dough is so taut to compensate for the addition of the wholemeal flour? I have read somewhere that wholemeal needs more water. I take it from everyone's comments that I should be knocking it down after the first rise, knead again and let it come up again... however I have done this sometimes when making another batch for bread rolls and haven't noticed much difference either.
If I experiment with adding more yeast, should I also increase the amount of sugar/honey/molasses or whatever the food is for the yeast?
I should add a postscript to note that I quite like the heavier bread now! I did buy some store-bought rolls last week for my lunch and while at first I enjoyed the lighter texture I was afterwards disappointed at how 'empty' they tasted and how I was still hungry after eating them! What's wrong with my DH not appreciating my efforts in the kitchen ;)
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Patsycate, nothing wrong with your DH. Everyone looks for something different in bread.
Bluesed and Andi are professionals, I am just a home cook ,who has been making bread for about 50 years. Take what you need from all of us but don't mix the methods that we all offer
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fundj if your bread has been turning out how you like it then dont change what you do...I have found that in general bread is very forgiving ...i let it rise in general either double to size in the bowl then put it on a tray or in a loaf tin to rise to double again...if i need the bowl i put it in a glass bowl covered in gladwrap and leave it to rise to double...each to their own as long as you get the result your after! I might try andies method of rising in the fridge overnight as I have heard also that it gives the bread a nicer flavour with a very slow rise..
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I have a triple rise dough baking now ;D
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I love these posts. All these tips and tricks make it possible to make successful recipes with much less failures. Thanks for all the tips.
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I rise my bread in the fridge overnight all the time in summer so that I can cook it first thing in the morning when I get up (generally 5-5.30am latest) before the house heats up. It works a real treat :)
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Faffa do you do a double rise before you put it in the fridge? Or just one rise then in the fridge for the night?
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One rise in my bread mat, shape into the tin then rise in the fridge. Pull it out when I get up, preheat the oven, cook when the oven is hot and also throw some boiling water in a dish in the bottom of the oven :D
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Patsycate, nothing wrong with your DH. Everyone looks for something different in bread.
Bluesed and Andi are professionals, I am just a home cook ,who has been making bread for about 50 years. Take what you need from all of us but don't mix the methods that we all offer
Good advice Chookie, that's when things start going wrong. I'm going to stick to my double rise, that takes long enough without waiting for a third one. I'd be so hungry by the time the loaf was ready to eat, I'd eat the whole darn thing in one sitting which would bring me back where I started - no bread in the house :-))
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I did the triple rise today just after my normal way,(just 2) DH or i could not taste any difference :)
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A good enough reason not to bother then fundj ;)
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I've been adding a tspn of vinegar for ech tspn of yeast and a dollop of sour cream as bread improvers to my bread dough mixes with good results. When I grind wheat I leave it overnight in the fridge adding the usual amount of water for baking plus the vinegar and sour cream and then mix in the plain flour etc and rise twice and bake. At the moment I am grinding 350 grams wheat and soaking in 350 mls water with 2tspns vinegar and 1 dollop of sour cream overnight then adding 150 grams plain organic flour, 1 tspn sugar, 1 tspn salt, 2 tspns yeast and kneading 4 mins in TMX. Rising then shaping and rising again, then baking.
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Jude, that sounds like a great Bread Improver substitute.
Pastycate, try the TangZhong Bread (http://www.forumthermomix.com/index.php?topic=6409.0) recipe. Everyone has had great success with it.
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Thanks again for everyone's tips... I will try the Tang Zhong and I also came across a milk bread recipe I'd like to try.
I've been having more success by increasing the water in my recipe... I use organic flours and ~30% wholemeal and I think they just take a lot more water. I think my doughs were too tight before so they didn't rise; since adding more water (until the dough is almost sloppy but still forms a ball when being kneaded in the TMX) I'm having a lot more success; the loaves are nice and tall and look good.
The only thing I'd like to improve is how fine the bubbles are... I think this is where the softness comes in to it. I've overcome the 'heavy' with extra water... now I'm just working on getting it softer!
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Thanks again for everyone's tips... I will try the Tang Zhong and I also came across a milk bread recipe I'd like to try.
I've been having more success by increasing the water in my recipe... I use organic flours and ~30% wholemeal and I think they just take a lot more water. I think my doughs were too tight before so they didn't rise; since adding more water (until the dough is almost sloppy but still forms a ball when being kneaded in the TMX) I'm having a lot more success; the loaves are nice and tall and look good.
The only thing I'd like to improve is how fine the bubbles are... I think this is where the softness comes in to it. I've overcome the 'heavy' with extra water... now I'm just working on getting it softer!
There are some bakers who are proponents of the "autolyse" component of bread making. One of the shows on America's Test Kitchen/Cook's Illustrated, discussed this and I would post the link except it is by subscription only.
Anyway, the gist of it is simply to mix the dry ingredients with the wet ingredients (except for salt), cover the bowl and leave it to "hydrate" or soak up the liquid for 20 to 30 minutes (or longer) BEFORE adding the yeast and going ahead with the first knead.
This was considered especially important with whole grain flour and also doughs containing whole grains, seeds and etc.
This page (http://artisanbreadbaking.com/discussions/artisanal_topics.htm) has some useful information - scroll down to Autolyse and read what he says about it.
I often soak whole grains, cracked wheat, oats, barley, quinoa, and millet overnight if I am going to add them to bread. I drain off any excess water but they often have soaked up most of it.
When I use the autolyse method, I don't add the soaked whole grains until after I have added the yeast and done some of the kneading and then I add some of the wet grains until fully incorporated and then add the rest gradually. I think I get better distribution this way.
If I am kneading by hand, I stretch and pull the dough into a big rectangle, spread the wet grains and seeds on top of it and then roll it into a long, fold in the ends and continue kneading.
I don't do this much nowadays because of arthritis in my hands but at one time I did a lot of kneading by hand and I have the muscles in my shoulders to prove it. :D
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Patsycate, I've been making bread ever since I bought my TMX, and been fairly happy with the results, even though DS7 thinks it's the 'wrong shape'! However, I recently stumbled upon a bread book that's been self-published by a TMX consultant at http://tickofyum.webs.com (http://tickofyum.webs.com). I bought a copy and learnt a lot about the science of bread, and also picked up some great ideas for trying different breads. In my opinion it was $10 well spent.
Now to get a proper bread baking tin, rather than just using a couple of smaller loaf tins ...
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One rise in my bread mat, shape into the tin then rise in the fridge. Pull it out when I get up, preheat the oven, cook when the oven is hot and also throw some boiling water in a dish in the bottom of the oven :D
Oh, I misinterpreted someone's suggestion of proving in the fridge. I kneaded in TMX then shaped and put in fridge overnight. The suggestion said it turned out much the same. Mine didn't! Next time I will try as you and just do the second rise in the fridge. It is so convenient getting it preparedin the evening.
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' I've overcome the 'heavy' with extra water... now I'm just working on getting it softer!'
Sorry, for some reason my computer isn't letting me use the quote button, so I can't get the nice little grey box.
I've found that adding chia seeds makes the bread softer. Add 20g seeds to the flour, and add an extra 40g water, as the seeds absorb water. This is one tip I picked up from the book I mentioned last post.
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Could you soak the chia seeds do you think?
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Could you soak the chia seeds do you think?
When I soak chia seeds, I add only enough water to cover them, then add small amounts as they absorb it (it doesn't take very long). They develop little gelatinous "bubbles" around each seed and I don't want to wash that away as I want it in my bread so as soon as most are encased in the "bubbles" I don't add more water.
I do soak and wash quinoa because it has a coating of saponin, which is bitter. Here in the U.S. a couple of companies are offering pre-washed quinoa (Bob's Red Mill, Roland, Ancient Harvest) but I usually buy the bulk which has not been washed.
Sometimes people simply do not read the directions (if buying bulk there are none) to wash the grain prior to cooking and then wonder why the cereal is bitter.
Quinoa information here. (http://www.glutenfreeshoponline.com/gluten-free-grains/buy-quinoa/)
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:) Okay after reading everyone's tips I myself tried again! Guess what lovely white soft rolls...just like the brought ones!! I am so so happy!!! :D :D :D :D :D
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I bet you are natmum - there will be no stopping you now.
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Could you soak the chia seeds do you think?
Soaked chia seeds is called chia gel and it is highly nutritious (far more nutritious than unsoaked seeds). We add chia gel to everything - smoothies, pancakes, bread etc. Here (http://fulllittletummies.blogspot.com/2010/05/filling-tummies-nourishing-chia-gel.html) is my recipe for it.
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Could you soak the chia seeds do you think?
Soaked chia seeds is called chia gel and it is highly nutritious (far more nutritious than unsoaked seeds). We add chia gel to everything - smoothies, pancakes, bread etc. Here (http://fulllittletummies.blogspot.com/2010/05/filling-tummies-nourishing-chia-gel.html) is my recipe for it.
Thanks for that, Chelsea. Great advice. I know some people are hesitant about the chia gel but I've always considered it a bonus!
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Thanks Chelsea, I looked on your blog and will definely purchase some chia seeds. Nice to see local available and good price and as well as being packed with goodness have a long shelf life. Love your blog btw. ( and your waffle cones, very clever)