Author Topic: yogurt  (Read 6828 times)

Offline fundj&e

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yogurt
« on: May 05, 2011, 11:09:52 pm »
I thought I would share my mistake

I realized yesterday that I think I completely skipped the Cook for 20min 37deg speed 2-3 last week, it was my best one so far thick and creamy.

I did a test on 1 cup of milk and 6 hours later it was yogurt, drain it over night and its yogurt cheese

Does it need to cook for 20 mins further to make it safe for eating?

ciao
i don't need a recipe i'm italian

Offline andiesenji

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 11:43:18 pm »
I don't think I understand your question.   I don't know why there is "cooking" after the initial heating. 

Milk has to be heated to a specific temperature:  180 to 200° F.  or  82 to 93°  C.
This is the temp that kills unwanted organisms and also changes the milk proteins so they will more readily be affected by the yogurt culture.   Heating to a temperature less than this will not produce the desired result and certainly will not destroy lysteria, the organism that is most often associated with pathogens in milk.

It then has to be cooled to NO MORE THAN  115° F., or 46° C.    Higher temp will kill the culture. 

At that point the culture is added - using either a commercial culture or a plain - unflavored (preferably organic) yogurt.

It is then held at the ideal temperature - above 85° F.,  or   30°  C., and no higher than 110° F or 43 C.  for the number of hours required for the culture to incubate and proliferate in the milk.   Wrapping in heavy towels, using a heating pad on low, placing in an oven with a standing pilot light or using a "yogurt maker appliance" or vacuum bottle or other insulated container.
During the summer here, when daytime temps are around 80° F., I just leave the closed containers on a counter. 

This can take as little as 5 hours for a very active culture or 8-10 hours. 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 11:52:28 pm by andiesenji »
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Offline mkr

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 11:48:30 pm »
What a great mistake.  :)

No need to cook further to make it safe for eating. Cooking at 90deg will have already pasteurised the milk so that your yoghurt culture can grow without competition.

Offline fundj&e

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 11:57:52 pm »
Andi I am following Valerie’s  method

ciao
i don't need a recipe i'm italian

Offline andiesenji

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2011, 01:31:17 am »
I really don't see much point in the further cooking but if it works for you, that is super.

It would not work for me because my TMX gets too hot when set at 37.  I drilled a hole in my spatula collar to admit a probe thermometer while the TMX is operating.

When I have the temp set at 37, the actual temp of whatever is in the bowl registers 47, ten degrees higher and too hot for the yogurt culture I use. 

I've tried it several times, putting room temp water in the jug and setting the temp at 37.  also trying it with chilled water and with milk.

What keyed me in to the fact that it was too hot was, soon after I got it, I was melting chocolate in it and it burnt.  The chocolate was frying, not melting, so I tested it with my Thermapen, which I know is accurate. 
Stuff in the jug boils vigorously by the time it hits 90 °C.   It shouldn't boil until 100.   
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Offline fundj&e

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2011, 02:02:33 am »
Andi I have been looking at this web site http://www.thermomix-recipes.com/2011/02/yogurt-with-thermomix.html
Some only heat it for 5 min on 80

i am very new to yogurt making

ciao
i don't need a recipe i'm italian

Offline fundj&e

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2011, 02:07:39 am »
What a great mistake.  :)

No need to cook further to make it safe for eating. Cooking at 90deg will have already pasteurised the milk so that your yoghurt culture can grow without competition.

mkr I only cook it on 80deg
i don't need a recipe i'm italian

Offline JulieO

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2011, 05:32:24 am »
I saw this thread this morning before making a new litre batch of yoghurt so I thought I'd give the shorter version a go.  I'm a little sceptical that it will work but it's now sitting in the incubator where I will leave it until morning.  I'll report back as to whether it worked or not.  :P

Offline JulieO

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2011, 01:42:18 am »
Well I checked my yoghurt this morning after about 20 hours in the incubator and it hasn't set.  Just liquid, nice tasting liquid, but not what I was after. I will use it up in smoothies so it won't be wasted.   I will make it my usual way this afternoon as I need some tomorrow to make butter chicken.  Worth trying, but it didn't work for me.  ;D

Just realised I'd better say what I did so not to confuse with what fundj did. 

I followed one of the instructions from the website that was listed, heat milk on 50C/10 mins, add culture, mix in for a few mins (no heat) that's it.

Wondering if I should try doing what fundj did and not 'cook' for the second time?  Mmm might give that method a go  ;D
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 01:51:21 am by JulieO »

Offline andiesenji

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2011, 02:41:56 am »
In one of the other yogurt threads I posted a link to a dairy site that  gives specific  reasons for heating the milk to  the higher temperature.

Not only does it "sterilize" the milk, it affects the  proteins in the milk  that allow it to accept the yogurt culture. 

There are chemicals that  also affect milk - rennet, etc., but you don't want to use those when making yogurt, you get a different flavor and effect.
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Offline fundj&e

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2011, 02:48:55 am »
julieO I am trying that method too I should have read this 1st. I love smoothies, made with my failed yogurt lol

ciao
i don't need a recipe i'm italian

Offline JulieO

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2011, 07:15:12 am »
Thanks Andi, I should have known better, but after reading so many reviews of people saying how good it was I couldn't help but try it.  I now know better.  ;)

I have a new lot incubating (after 15 mins/90C/speed 2) leaving to cool to around 43C then adding the culture.  Mixed on speed 2/2 mins and then poured into a container then into the incubator. 

I will check it before going to bed or just leave it until the morning to hopefully find the usual lovely thick yoghurt.

If this doesn't work I will go back to the method I've been using without any problems for the last few months, here's hoping  :)

Offline fundj&e

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2011, 12:07:14 pm »
julieO  it did work for me i drain it for 1 hour it is thick and creamy when i say thick it does not fall when i turn my spoon side way did u know what i mean

ciao
i don't need a recipe i'm italian

Offline andiesenji

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2011, 05:03:20 pm »
I found the post I added in May 2010 - with regard to the reason for the specific temperatures to which milk has to be heated and cooled to have success with yogurt (or other milk products).  I posted this because of some discussion about sites that had suggestions of making yogurt with milk that had not been heated as much - one even used milk simply brought to room temp. 
I note that the Milk Board suggests holding the cultured milk at 105 to 110° F  for 8-10 hours but I have had good results with slightly lower temps and I often leave it for longer because I like the additional "tang" that develops. 

Quote
As I mentioned in an earlier post, as did Thermomixer, there is a chemical change in the milk after the pre-heating to a specific temperature, that allows the yogurt culture to change the structure of the milk solids - the casein proteins, of which there are four types in cow's milk. 
Without this process the culture can't "invade" the cells efficiently and there is the possibility that an undesirable organism (that is less fussy about the structure of the milk proteins) can propagate and produce what you describe as a "slimy" end result.

Pasteurization does not kill ALL the bacteria in milk.  There are always some organisms that are not exactly pathogenic but are also undesirable.   Without the heating to a high enough temp to inactivate these organisms, you will give them an opportunity to take over and actually prevent the development of the desirable bacteria.

Following is a quote from the California Milk Board:
"Yogurt is formed by the growth of two bacterial organisms in milk; Streptococcus thermophilus and Lactobacillus bulgaricus which turn the milk sugars into lactic acid. These are two separate bacteria that are active at different times during processing. Some times you will also find yogurt that contains other ""Probiotic"" cultures such as Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium longum, and Bifidobacterium infantis which are bacterium normally found in your intestines. Together these bacteria aid in digestion and the synthesis of vitamins. Here are the required steps. Heat milk to between 180 and 200 °F. Heating the milk is done for a few reasons. First, to sterilize/pasteurize the milk so that the yogurt bacteria/culture has a hospitable place to grow in. It is not desirable to incubate contaminating bacteria that might be present in the unsterilized milk. Heating should be done even with pasteurized milk to help make a smooth thick yogurt. Heating the milk also helps stop the whey from separating out quite as much. You must then cool milk to 115 °F and add yogurt culture. (If the milk is too hot it will kill the yogurt bacteria.) Stir in yogurt culture gently until dissolved. Hold temperature at 105 to 110 °F for approximately 8-10 hours. This allows your ""good"" bacteria to grow. The methods listed in the post are suitable for this. Finally, you must refrigerate the processed yogurt for at least two hours. Refrigeration help slow the continued bacterial growth. If yogurt is not refrigerated it will become sour."
and:
The whey proteins are more sensitive to heat than the caseins. HTST pasteurization will not affect the nutritional and functional properties of the whey proteins. Higher heat treatments may cause denaturation of ß-lactoglobulin, which is an advantage in the production of some foods (yogurt) and ingredients because of the ability of the proteins to bind more water. Denaturation causes a change in the physical structure of proteins, but generally does not affect the amino acid composition and thus the nutritional properties. Severe heat treatments such as ultra high pasteurization may cause some damage to heat sensitive amino acids and slightly decrease the nutritional content of the milk. The whey protein α-lactalbumin, however, is very heat stable.

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Offline JulieO

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Re: yogurt
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2011, 02:00:42 am »
Thanks again Andi for posting that in depth report.

My new yoghurt was a success.  I had a look last night before bed after 9 hours and it was set, so popped it into the fridge.  So, yes no need to do that second heating on 37C.   :)