Who else is scared of raw eggs?

[Wonder]

My DD was extremely sick with Salmonella 2 years ago and was hospitalised for 2 weeks. She was infected during a kids cooking class which was held as part of the Melbourne Food and Wine festival.  The classes were held by a husband and wife team of well known chefs and they cooked chicken, salad and chocolate mousse, they had followed strict hygiene standards so it was quite a surprise to find the problem had come from this source.  The culprit was originally thought to be the raw chicken but after much investigation it was found to be the free range eggs used in the chocolate mousse which had been purchased at the farmers market held at the venue of the cooking classes earlier that day, and more specifically they found the bacteria was actually present on the shells not the interior of the eggs.  When dealing with the government department responsible for the investigation they said that while this was a known issue world wide and is of particular concern with free range eggs and had resulted in a virtual holt to the free range egg industry in the UK, it is not well understood by the general public.  My DD had a severe reaction as she had cracked all the eggs for the chocolate mousse, but over half the participants were affected in some way.

My DD is still very wary of eating eggs that haven't been cooked fully so this might be a way to get over that fear.

[Sim]

It must of been pretty bad! Has she recovered ok? Meaning, how is her digestive system?

My partner and I haven't quite recovered yet, and we got it back in early November 09. He can't drink beer anymore without getting sick, he is quite devastated to say the least. We are working towards better health though, fingers crossed.

Even though I do believe that the home pasteurising method would work, the fear is still very strong! I don't think I'll eat them just yet. It may seem silly to some, but, I just can't bring myself to do it. I'll be braver when I feel better... lol.

[baf65]

omg another thing to worry about!!!!!  sometimes ignorance is bliss as they say!

[Chelsea (Thermie Groupie)]

The culprit was originally thought to be the raw chicken but after much investigation it was found to be the free range eggs used in the chocolate mousse which had been purchased at the farmers market held at the venue of the cooking classes earlier that day, and more specifically they found the bacteria was actually present on the shells not the interior of the eggs.  When dealing with the government department responsible for the investigation they said that while this was a known issue world wide and is of particular concern with free range eggs and had resulted in a virtual holt to the free range egg industry in the UK, it is not well understood by the general public.  

What is it about free range eggs that differ from barn/battery eggs? Do I need to start shutting my chooks up?

[cookie1]

Our eggs over here are in the refrigerator section at the supermarket. Sort of near the milk usually. Although I have seen a couple of supermarkets that don't refrigerate them in the winter months.

[achookwoman]

I'm not an expert on eggs,( although i have kept chooks for over 30 years).   I think when caged hens lay eggs, the eggs,  roll away immediately.    When free range chooks lay, they lay in a nest and may contaminate the eggs with poo or other farm yard matter,  It is not good to wash the dirt off eggs as this can contaminate the eggs.   I have kept my eggs in the fridge for 10 weeks,  and they still seem to be fresher than those bought from the super market.     Eggs in Victoria, mostly are unrefrigerated.

[Chelsea (Thermie Groupie)]

It is not good to wash the dirt off eggs as this can contaminate the eggs.

This thread is making me a bit paranoid and tonight I scrubbed my eggs until they were spotless before I boiled them.  Whoops!!!

[achookwoman]

Chelsea,  I try and collect the eggs every day,  if the nest is dirty I pull out the rice hulls ( this is what we have on the floor and in the nest boxes),  and put in clean rice hulls.    If any of the eggs are dirty,  I do wash them in warm water with a couple of drops of detergent, (not too much as it might perfume the eggs.).   I just dip them into the water and then dry them with a cloth. I refrigerate them immediately.    I have never had a problem.    The mayo recipe is the only one i use that has raw eggs in it.   All the eggs we use are cooked,  either in cakes or boiled .   I have given a lot of eggs away , over the years and no one has had a problem.  I think that the problem with washing the eggs is if you use hot water.   But I am not sure on this point.

[FoodSci]

Frankly, I would love to see the data that proves this home pasteurization method works. I'm not one to buy in on something just because someone tells me it's so. As a biologist, I rely on this.

It is easy to kill viruses with heat, but not bacteria.

I do know that commercial pasteurization of in shell eggs works, because I have seen the data. And I know that the method is a good bit different than the one you describe. I would like to know the internal temperature the center of the yolk reaches. How does time differ depending on the size of the egg? Has this been tested on inocculated eggs? What level of reduction is achieved? I would not trust anything less than 4 log. Commercial pasteurization exceeds 5 log reduction.

Please consider learning more from the "expert" scientists at the FSIS, who have no vested interest in selling anything. http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Factsheets/Focus_On_Shell_Eggs/index.asp

[bron]

I have a recipe literally translated as Hygiene approved Mayo, will post it for you all, at least NO samonella!

[andiesenji]

Okay, forget everything I wrote earlier.  I've only been pasteurizing raw milk for my cheesemaking for about forty years and have been pasteurizing my own eggs for almost as long.   

Since the USDA has been extremely lax in keeping up to date on investigations of possible contamination of food processing facilities, until something bad happens, I take with a grain of salt many of their notices.
There have been many instances of the USDA turning a blind eye to blatant violations by big agribusiness and yet coming down hard on small producers that eventually had to sell out - to, guess who?  Big agribusiness companies. 
And as an example, there is this: http://www.cattlenetwork.com/Jolley--USA-Today-Takes-USDA-Today-To-The-Wood-Shed/2009-12-03/Article.aspx?oid=963859&fid=CN-LATEST_NEWS_

You mentioned viruses. 
There are many heat-resistant viruses - we have a nasty one here in California known as the Hantavirus and the foot-and-mouth disease virus that wrecked havoc not too many years ago is heat-resistant as are strains of bovine parvovirus.  The common herpes simplex virus is also heat-resistant and there have been incidences of hepatitis-B virus resistant to heat shock. 

Here in the US it is estimated, from extensive testing, that one in 20,000 eggs has salmonella inside the YOLK due to a "battery" chicken with infected ovaries.  In other countries the incidence is far less and in free-range chickens it is virtually non-existent.   

One in 200 commercial eggs has salmonella on the shell AFTER WASHING and it is these eggs that the home pasteurizing renders safe and the same goes for free-range eggs or eggs from farmer's markets. 
This form of pasteurization will not totally remove all possibility of salmonella but rendering the bacteria on the surface of the egg incapable of cell division makes them much safer than when just off the shelf or out of the nest.   

The commercial process is designed to kill salmonella in the egg yolk and the equipment handles thousands of eggs at a time.  I've seen it in use and I have also seen the equipment that irradiates eggs and egg products in use during a tour of a facility in Bakersfield, CA.
The total output of that facility goes to the commercial baking industry, not to consumers. 

[FoodSci]

One in 20,000 is the stat you get from the American Egg Board, who have a vested interest in selling eggs. The FSIS reports the incidence to be one in 3,600.

Pasteurizing milk is not hard. My family pasteurized milk from their cows, too. It can easily be tested. Pasteurizing an egg in the shell is a different story.

I would be very interested in seeing the data on free-range chickens and salmonella in the U.S. I have searched long and hard but have yet to come up with anything but opinion. I did find a study from Teheran.

Killing bacteria on the shell of an egg is not the same as pasteurizing an egg, and it should not be presented as such. Doing so could cause someone irreparable harm.

[andiesenji]

I don't want to argue with you, I will do what works for me.   

Do what you think is best for you and the rest of the forum members should do the same.

Because I do not trust the USDA's information because of past performance (and their vested interest in many ag enterprises - the milk powder debacle in '07 is just one) I will continue to follow the advice of food scientists such as Shirley Corriher, Harold McGee and others who have practical experience as well as scientific.

This is my final post on this subject.  At age 70 I've not lost any of my intelligence or my common sense and I have learned that it is a waste of time to carry on a pointless discussion.

[FoodSci]

If there were data to back up these claims, then there is no argument. That is the great thing about science.

I'm sorry you feel this is pointless. The problem here is that this bad advice can make someone very sick. 

[Chelsea (Thermie Groupie)]

Chelsea,  I try and collect the eggs every day,  if the nest is dirty I pull out the rice hulls ( this is what we have on the floor and in the nest boxes),  and put in clean rice hulls.    If any of the eggs are dirty,  I do wash them in warm water with a couple of drops of detergent, (not too much as it might perfume the eggs.).   I just dip them into the water and then dry them with a cloth. I refrigerate them immediately.    I have never had a problem.    The mayo recipe is the only one i use that has raw eggs in it.   All the eggs we use are cooked,  either in cakes or boiled .   I have given a lot of eggs away , over the years and no one has had a problem.  I think that the problem with washing the eggs is if you use hot water.   But I am not sure on this point.

Thanks "Chookie" !!! It's always good to know what others do with their eggs and chooks.