Bread beginner needs HELP

[Wiz (not)]

Thank  you all for your advice and comments.  It is very encouraging.
I finally screwed up the courage to try it yesterday.
I took the Plain White Rolls no fuss recipe and compared it to the bread recipe in the spiral book that came with the TM.
I have one of those TM bread mat things and wanted to avoid the time that seemed to be involved in letting it rise in the TM.
The book recipe was essentially the same as the Plain White Rolls one, except that it had oil as well.  It also used some grains, but the combined weight of the grains and the flour was the same as the Plain white Rolls recipe and all the other elements were identical.
I used Laucke's bread flour.  I used the Plain White Rolls recipe, added the oil as per the book recipe, put the ingredients in in the order that the book recipe specified, turned on the air conditioner to warm up the room and put the dough in the mat to rise.  I left it there a little longer than it said because I was interrupted, but as it was a cold day I figured that the extra time wouldn't do any harm.
I had a problem with the oven specifications because it said to put into a cold fan forced oven and turn on the temperature but don't use the fan forcing.  That doesn't make sense to me because my oven either operates on fan forced or on regular principles but I can't have it on with the fan forced off unless I just use the elements.
So I used it as a standard oven (top and bottom elements).
I made roughly shaped rolls so that I didn't have to address the "bread tin" issue and because I thought they might cook more quickly this way.  I brushed them with water in accordance with the instructions.
The bread rolls weren't bad at all, and I wasn't unhappy with them, but I did feel they were a tad doughy/heavy in the centre (ie judged against perfection or the rolls one buys from the shop).
What do I do to reduce any heaviness in the centre?  I'm too unskilled to try to work out the chemistry in this.
Thanks all, very much

[CreamPuff63]

Wiz, perhaps they still weren't cooked long enough. Here are three topics that may be of some help to you, and are an interesting read:

one...
two...
three...

what works for me is letting the dough do its first rise, and takes approx an hour (sometimes bit more, to double in size). I knock it down to remove all the air, and then shape as required. Then I turn the oven on which takes approx half an hour to heat up, and by the time the oven has reached the temp the bread/rolls should have had a bit of rise and be ready to pop into the oven.

[achookwoman]

Wiz,  your lack of success in producing a good roll is due to you mixing the 2 processes.  I don't agree at all with the process used by EDC instructions.  Cp is right you need 2 double rises.   The basic ingredients can be fiddled with a fair bit ,  but not the process ( until you have a lot of experience).  Either use Isi's recipe for her Portuguese Rolls or my No Fuss recipe and don't fiddle with the process.  What you have done is good because this is a learning experience and i can see that you have made a valiant effort to understand the process.  Why the double rise in these recipes?  It is to get the gluten working,and so that when the dough hits the heat in the oven the gas bubbles expand and this gives an extra lift.
I am so happy that you have taken the first step,  and am sure that you will soon be making wonderful bread.

[Frozzie]

hi wiz
i have to say im not a fan of the EDC recipes at all...I have found not only the processes to be off in some recipes but also ingredients in others..  with the dense bread ..CP and chookie are right its about the two double rises which is quite important to get a lighter finished product...like i said it depends on climate and time etc but you just need to keep an eye on it and when it has doubled mixed or bash it down again then form into desired shape and let rise again until double before putting in an oven.  If you have the time it is better to let the bread rise naturally ie not put near something hot etc as some people do...it will give you a better flavour with a slower natural rise.

I find chookies recipe quite easy and forgiving so i would stick to her recipe and play with it from there once you have a result you like you can add other ingredients etc.  Most bread recipes, pasta recipes etc are very similar if not identical but like chookie said its the process that makes the difference..

Just read peoples comments on any given recipe as a guide and go from there...let us know how you go with the two double rises with chookies recipe.....its quite light and fluffy like store bought bread...

[jkmt]

Hi Wiz,
That's a great start. Congratulations. Unless I want it for something else, I usually do my first rise in the TMX jug and I know it's ready for my attention when it's starting to push the measuring cup out. Then I knock it down, and give it another minute's knead before I tip it out and shape it. Then as the others said, set aside to rise for 20 minutes or so while the oven heats. I find my rolls/small loaves usually cook in 20 minutes, but I know some people give them up to 30 minutes. I was quite chuffed and a bit incredulous when a friend told me the loaf of bread I gave her was the best bread she and her DH had ever eaten. The glory for that one goes to Isi though since it was her Portugese rolls recipe.