Forum Thermomix
Welcoming Center, Management and General Chat => Chit Chat => Topic started by: achookwoman on February 21, 2012, 09:03:30 pm
-
David Whitehouse, Dan Lepard's publisher has requested that I remove all of Dan's recipes from the Forum and from my Blog. I will attempt to do this today. I understand that I can leave the photos and reference to where the recipes came from. Chookie
-
Oh, I suppose it's every publisher's right to do that, won't bother checking his recipes out now though ;)
-
Buggar, I wanted to try this one too Chookie.
-
I will continue to use his recipes and post what I think about them. Just can't print the recipes. Shame as it has been such good publicity for such great books.
-
Thats a real shame, I didnt manage to do his cookies.
H :)
-
Well, that's it for me. I had put his book "Handmade Bread" in my Amazon cart, intending to send it to my daughter for her birthday but this attitude is rather insulting. I've removed the book and will send her something else.
Sad to think that the publication of a few representative recipes can bring this kind of reaction. If anything, publication of recipes I could try would make me more likely to purchase the cookbooks.
Considering that Peter Reinhart has no problem with people passing on some of his recipes (and he has a lot of books out) on forums such as the Bread-Baker's Digest, because he knows that this actually sells books. (I have all of his books.)
-
I agree Andie, i would try a few recipes & if loved them would buy the book.
I think the publisher is being petty, in fact he is doing the company out of sales. Just look at us all, few people purchase something, rave about it, then a load of us buy it.
E.g
Dinner spiners, QFITM, For Foods Sake, ice cream makers, vacuum sealers
I have all of these and without this forum I woud have none of these.
H :)
-
Yes , he has every right to ask me to remove the recipes. Most of the recipes were actually changed to meet the needs of the TMX process. It is a shame though, as it has been good publicity for his books. Not much generosity of spirit that is so much in evidence on the Forum and as Andi points out, with other authors.
-
Chookie that's a shame and I agree it has been great publicity for his books.
I'd never heard of him before, but I purchased his book on the back of your comments and conversions.
I won't be buying another of his books again though
-
Gosh, you have been such a great advertisement for him. I have bought 2 of his books after learning about him. Credit has always been given to him too. How very upsetting. I will remove his cookies from here and any others.
I think he has made quite a few sales from being advertised on this forum. I guess he is within his rights so goodbye recipes.
-
Chookie, I received a similar email from David Whitehouse this morning and believe that in some cases it is bluff.
I have checked with a solicitor specialising in copyright and clarified a few issues.
There is NO COPYRIGHT ON A SIMPLE LIST OF INGREDIENTS.
If the method is modified or converted (as is my conversion for Sweet Potato Brownies) then this does not infringe copyright.
If the original author is acknowledged and the original source is linked back to then it is not plagiarism.
Plagiarism is the passing of of anothers work as your own.
Whitehouse has been urging many bloggers to take down copies of Lepard's recipes, but I question his justification in some instances. He is also doing the Dan Lepard brand no favours at all with such a heavy handed approach.
-
It's a pity Dan L can't be contacted to see what his opinion is.
-
It's a pity Dan L can't be contacted to see what his opinion is.
I'd be surprised if he didn't know this is happening. Don't know this for a fact, but I have been told that Whitehouse is actually Lepards partner/spouse.
-
I'm sure he does then. How sad to give up all that publicity over the other side of the world.
-
Chookie, I received a similar email from David Whitehouse this morning and believe that in some cases it is bluff.
I have checked with a solicitor specialising in copyright and clarified a few issues.
There is NO COPYRIGHT ON A SIMPLE LIST OF INGREDIENTS.
If the method is modified or converted (as is my conversion for Sweet Potato Brownies) then this does not infringe copyright.
If the original author is acknowledged and the original source is linked back to then it is not plagiarism.
Plagiarism is the passing of of anothers work as your own.
Whitehouse has been urging many bloggers to take down copies of Lepard's recipes, but I question his justification in some instances. He is also doing the Dan Lepard brand no favours at all with such a heavy handed approach.
I'm so sad to hear that. I was going to get the short and sweet book too because of Cookies and others on this forums recommendation but I won't be doing that now.
My understanding of copyright was similar to what Amanda posted. If you have changed the method (eg converted for thermomix) then it is not technically covered by his copyright - but I am no lawyer! This has completely changed my opinion of Dan Lepard
-
This is interesting, and really annoying as I, Like many others on here had intended to buy his books when finances allowed.
I had tried to find one of his recipes recently via a link and it had been removed from his site??
Perhaps they feel too many people are benefitting from the freely available recipes and not buying the books rather than looking at the other angle,..
If we can try a few recipes for free, and find they are good, and work well that we are more inclined to buy the book.
Seem a case of penny pinching that is going to backfire.
-
I was under the same impression re Copyright, Amanda.
I too, buy books based on recipes. The Pioneer Women, most of her recipes are on her website, I still paid the $50 odd to buy her book anyway!
Jamie Oliver's recipes, a lot are redily available, yet, massive book sales.
I find seeing a few of the recipes and trying them, entices me to buy the book.
I find it poor form to act this way, but that's just my personal opinion :)
-
hes not happy
http://ohgoshandbother.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/siphonaptera.html#comment-form
-
Hmmm, well, I can't see that I'll ever purchase one of his books.
I have to agree with 'where did this REALLY originate?'.
-
hes not happy
http://ohgoshandbother.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/siphonaptera.html#comment-form
:-)
Seems a lot of toes have been trodden on .
-
I would never have heard of DAn Lapard if not for this forum. I don't usually buy cookbooks, or music CDs either, becuase I don't want most of the recipes or songs just one or two.
Publishers and the music indusrty are often short sighted when it comes to this issue. All they see is someone used my recipe or listened to my song and I ddin't get recompse for it. Like many people if I am inclined to buy a cookbook or album it is usually becuase I have expereineced a protion of it on the internet and decided I want purchase it all.
-
Uni how did you ever find that?
-
i just clicked on his name, david whitehouse
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3907905381136525332&postID=298803162554131186&isPopup=true
-
Clever person. :-*
-
Uni, i read the link with great interest. Thank you. I would like to point out that I have used only 4 recipes,out of the hundreds in his books and also in the Guardian, all of which the method has been changed for the TMX. I think he has lost more sales than gained them, if you read the reaction to this action, here. Still, that is his choice.
Also his GF bread was published in the Age .just bung everything into the TMX and knead for 1 min. (http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/cuisine/baking/recipe/glutenfree-bread-20111202-1oa3j.html)
-
This is what David Whitehouse suggests in the link Fundj posted:
On adapted recipes, I would suggest giving a link to the original recipe first, and then simply writing about the changes you made and how you adapted it to what was in your pantry. That way, a reader is sent to the "source" and your blog is about your baking, and once again written "around" a recipe rather than posting it.
Sounds entirely reasonable to me.
-
I didn't read all of the articles, but next time I see a Dan Lepard recipe book I'm going to bypass it. Not sure if this David Whitehouse is representing him or just using him as an example - regardless Dan Lepard seems to be a Wally in my opinion if he is objecting to TM recipe alterations on our website.
-
gosh! . . . that was a relationship that was "Short and Sweet!" (for those who don't know, that was the name of one of Dan Lapard's books that was highly recommended on the forum!! Now the relationship has been cut very short . . . . and now somewhat sour! What a pity - I think they've really gone and shot themselves in the foot.
-
I don't think I've checked out the recipes of his on here, but I certainly won't be buying his book after reading that rant of his publishers blog!
-
This is always a touchy subject but i do think he is going a little too far because to be honest i wouldnt know who the heck dan lepard was if it wasnt for chookie and like alot of others started getting interested in his books but to be honest makes you really not want to bother... That sort of attitude will not do his image any good... Pity he has such an issue with bloggers as its all free publicity and can omly understand if its a direct copy and paste o he publshed rcipe not when altered..
-
Hi All,
Please leave all recipes on this forum until I have contacted this David person. If any action is taken then I will send out a newsletter to each and every member, explaining the situation.
This David person will have the decency to contact me, before meddling with my forum.
Thanks to all
Admin
-
MM To the rescue.
-
MM . . . YAY and 3 big cheers!!!!! Thank you!
-
I phoned a friend who works for a publishing company that has done some cookbooks and she said that the only part of a recipe that can be copyrighted is the directions or method.
Only in some very limited areas can ingredients be copyrighted and only if it is a proprietary brand name owned by the recipe creator.
I emailed her the links and her opinion is that he has rather an inflated opinion of his importance and doesn't know what he is talking about and if the directions in the recipe have been altered so they are specific for the Thermomix, there is no copyright infringement.
-
Hello folks,
I have had further contact with Whitehouse and if you are interested in watching how my dealings with him unfold I am posting his emails here - http://www.lambsearsandhoney.com/2011/09/seasonal-secrets-september/comment-page-1/#comment-5016
I have passed this matter into the hands of my solicitor who informs me that my adaptation in no way infringes copyright. He also suggested that if Chookies recipes were a similar adaptation to mine, that she has not committed any impropriety either so has nothing to fear.
Like MM, I object to being bullied and will not be passive in this matter.
-
Yes!!!!!
-
They should be thankful to this forum.....it has brought in sales for the books,, and we are very respectful of authors recipes.....buckets!
-
Great to see you are fighting back MM & Amanda - we are all behind you and appreciate your efforts tremendously.
-
Thanks to all..... The power of Social Media.
If needs be, I will start a Facebook Fan Page so that this issue reaches another dimension.
Stay tuned
MM
-
Andi and Amanda - to you two - also many thanks!! Amanda - love the name of your blog :D gorgeous!
-
MM & Amanda, thank you for fighting for our rights as " little people".
To be honest all I can see is that David Whitehouse has damaged the Dan Lepard brand. I have yet to make a recipe in the TM, but will do in the future. I will not buy his books.
Jamie Oliver, i love his website, have nearlly all his books & his app, ditto with Donna Hay & heading down the same path with Nigella. Will not be heading that way with Dan Lepard.
H :)
-
I really don’t think this David guy gets it, does he really want to p*** off 6387 members
Word of mouth is the greatest form of advertising. Over 90% of people buy product this way, i know i do
-
I really don’t think this David guy gets it, does he really want to p*** off 6387 members
Word of mouth is the greatest form of advertising. Over 90% of people buy product this way, i know i do
I posted a link to this on eGullet, which has considerably more members (791 pages that list the members) and in the short time since I posted, it has 113 views and 3 replys.
-
I agree Uni.
I would never have heard of Dan Lepard if it wasn't for Chookie's conversions and her recommendations of his recipes. I bought his book Short & Sweet purely because of this forum. I liked the book and the recipes and was going to purchase more of Dan's books - but I won't now. I wish I could turn back time and not purchase his @#$%!!! book! I don't feel inspired to cook any of Dan's recipes now either.
Well done MM and Amanda for not being bullied and for fighting back :)
-
MM and Amanda so very proud of you. Being only 8 am here you have all been busy while I have been sleeping. :-* :-*
-
I am also very disappointed by all of this. I totally understand that on the one hand food writers/publishers are trying to make money but on the other hand, we (ie the public) want to know what we are buying before forking out money for some of these cookbooks. As far as I can tell, over recent times every major cookbook writer seems more than happy to have some recipes released as a 'teaser' to whet our appetites. I suspect that everyone who mentioned that the sales have increased since Dan has had exposure on the forum are probably correct. Of course there are copyright laws there for a reason but on the other hand I think we all appreciate some goodwill and it seems there is not much goodwill coming from either Dan or his publisher, especially if the recipes are converted to the thermomix and are not exactly duplicated from a cookbook itself. I certainly do not wish to go and buy any of his books after all of this- prior to this topic being posted I was actually considering buying some of his cookbooks, now I have changed my mind!
-
There is some updated information re copyright and recipe ownership from an IP lawyer in a new comment on the "brownie" page here - http://www.lambsearsandhoney.com/2011/09/seasonal-secrets-september/comment-page-1/#comment-5016
-
MM , the reason I removed my recipes was that I did not want to cause any trouble for you and the very supportive members of this wonderful Forum. I appreciate you taking an interest in this matter as I feel that the conversion of Dan Lepard's recipes, as well as incidental information, from Dan, about bread making has added to the general knowledge of the Forum. Thank you again.
Amanda, thank you for your investigation into this matter.
Andi, your resources , support and knowledge, are greatly appreciated.
To all other Forum members, thank you for sharing.
-
Amanda, your IP lawyer has sound and practical advice for David/Dan Lepard. If the aim is to increase sales by doing this, it certainly is not happening here. All that is being achieved is putting a whole community of forum members off side. Hey, you know what, Dan, the man, recipes are not that unique!
-
I found the IP lawyers comments interesting. Particularly his link to the copyright act. It sounds as if Amanda and Chookie could take action against David Whitehouse for making spurious claims of copyright infringement
-
Love that Paul/IP lawyer guy. His response to David is pitch perfect.
-
i am following along with interest, and as others have said, am unlikely to purchase any dan lepard books in the future.
i think its funny that people think they own concepts like brownie recipes or bread recipes.... who did they get there recipe ideas from to start with? i am sure dan lepard didnt create them from scratch...
good on you amanda for standing up for yourself!
-
I agree - well done Amanda et al for standing up for yourselves. We all back you 100%. It would seem that David is forum Thermomix enemy number 1 at the moment!! What a ridiculous time waster he is, surely he has better things to do. If I was Dan Lepard I would be furious! I presume he intended his blog to improve sales of Dan's books but as other people have mentioned, he doesn't have a moratorium on the public posting of recipes. If you look at every website around the world there are millions of variations on various recipes- I think the majority of us are already cookbookaholics, or whatever you want to call it. I know that personally I have paid a small fortune to amass my cookbook collection. Just because someone posts a derivative recipe similar to someone elses, that doesn't mean that I will not then go out and buy that cookbook- I am just so ticked off by David's clearly paranoid behavior that I will certainly not be interested in looking at Dan's cookbooks AT ALL!
-
So are the recipes back on the forum lol??
Way to go mm and thx amanda for sharing that info xx
-
I will put mine back on when MM says OK. The 4 I removed were, GF Bread
Apricot Custard Rolls
Spelt and Ginger Cookies
Halva Flapjacks.
-
Well done everyone who stood up to Whitehouse :-*
-
I agree - well done everyone. I too will NEVER buy one of Dan Lapard's books - and I am a sucker for a good cook book. >:(
-
Just to let you guys know, that you are all correct on the copyright issue. I have worked with recipe writers before and I can ASSURE you practically every recipe is an alteration or amalgamation of a few different recipes. To get around this changing the method, and even the measurements for the ingredients changes the entire recipe. This is why you'll often find that some big authors like Nigella, will post 2 editions of books, one with weights only, one with metric and one with imperial measurements. The method remaining the same. Even something as simple as changing a cup of self raising flour to a cup of plain flour with baking soda, or the other way around changes the ownership of the recipe. If a recipe is referenced as "Adapted from" you are completely covered. And there is very little that can be done with regards to republishing the recipe, unless it states in the recipe that it is YOURS and no mention of the true Author is given. But like I said it must be word for word. A lot of recipe writers use other peoples works as inspiration and sometimes lines are blurred. Which is why it is like it is. But you'll also find that most food writers are mates and are more than happy to work together to create something new. It's the way the industry works. Yes it can be cut-throat, and I've seen the nasty side of that too. But for the most part everyone gets along because it's easier that way in the long run. I have never heard of this guy, but he really has done himself a disservice as you can see from this thread his sales will no doubt drop dramatically. When all you were doing really, was giving him free advertising. I can't tell you the amount of cookbooks I have purchased due to recipes I have found on blogs or websites. When I see something good I want more, and I know most foodies are exactly the same!
-
great info Mrs Nesbit thanks ;D
-
My solicitor has sent Whitehouse an email requesting him to cease his accusations. I guess we'll see where this goes from that.
-
Great work Amanda and your solicitor. I'll be watching closely.
-
I have not read every post on here, but as someone who has had a recent brush with lawyers over recipe copyright I do know the following;
You cannot copyright a set of ingredients
You can change a recipe in a minimum of 3 definite ways to claim it as your own…which frankly means that converting a recipe to a thermomix recipe from a standard non thermomix recipe makes it your own.
Out of courtesy to the originator of say (umami paste) or something equally distinctive, it is a good idea to recognise a source, but not needed to satisfy the law if the above changes have been initiated….
SO…back in your box DL!
-
Thanks Tenina and Mrs.Nesbit.
-
Well it seems as though Chookie and Amanda haven't breached anything.
They acknowledged Dan Lapard as the author and converted the recipe
to suit the thermomix. Obviously there will be no joy in his book sales now.
-
Wow! :o :o :o
People power to the rescue!
You rock MM & Amanda! :-* :-* :-*
-
Please place all recipes back on line. I am sure these delicious recipes are being missed.
Thanks
MM
-
Thanks MM. Your support is greatly appreciated.
-
Just read this today, GOOD ONE YOU PEOPLE. My Gd would say, You Rock.
-
Well that is very annoying as my Dan Leopard book arrived today - and I would never have ordered it if I had known he was authorising such stupidity. I had never heard of him before this forum - Chookie he should be sending you gifts, not telling you off. I work in advertising and am an expert in what is called in the industry 'social advertising'. And you are all absolutely correct. Smart brands are behaving with transparency and generosity online - and being rewarded for it. What he is doing is old fashioned and he will be alarmed with how quickly the consumer will bite back. Watch this space...
-
I had never heard of him either and bought the book when you ladies were all talking about it a few months ago because you were enthusiastic and so complimentary about it. I really think you have done him nothing but a good turn. What a shame things have gone like this.
-
I'm just slowly beginning to wonder of Dan Lepard himself had anything to do with this . . . or whether it was all the ill advised action of his "publisher/partner/whatever" = DL's obviously very talented in the kitchen and it would be a shame not to be able to learn a thing or two from him because of all this *^&%^$ . . .. Creative talents seem to need to have business managers/advisers because the two tangents just don't seem to mix and mingle in the one brain and it's a total pity Mr Whitehouse didn't familiarise himself with the actual laws, etc. before going off half cocked all over the planet. (Talk about a text book brain snap!)
A while back, thanks to the recommendations on the forum, I ordered 3x copies of Short and Sweet = 1 for me and 2 for friends for their birthdays. Before that, I'd never even heard of Dan Lepard. I like the book . . . . but I must admit the high handed and mean spirited attitude displayed recently has coloured my thoughts somewhat.
-
Well done Amanda. I've left a comment on your blog too.
-
Thanks for the support MJ - much appreciated. :)
-
This guy has been busy - just saw he has also contacted "vintage macaroon" blog as well as the others mentioned here. If I was Dan Lepard I wouldn't be happy with all the bad vibes this chap is spreading around.
-
Well done to all !!!!(http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/dancing/smileys-dancing-113219.gif) (http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/) (http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/dancing/smileys-dancing-113219.gif) (http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/) (http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/dancing/smileys-dancing-113219.gif) (http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/) (http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/dancing/smileys-dancing-113219.gif) (http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/)