Bread Colapse on Second Raise

[Denzelmum]

Have done Isi's Portugese rolls as a loaf so many times with no fail.  But this time for second raise, as it's a bit cold I decided to put it in the oven at 50 degree, 20 min.  And it's colapse, twice as wide and looks more like flat bread.  Not quite sure that second raise in the oven causing all this   

[thermoheaven]

I think the oven was too hot and it rose too quickly - 37 degrees should be as hot as it gets. if it rises too quickly, there's nothing to support the structure of the bread and it will collapse.

[Chelsea (Thermie Groupie)]

Are you turning the oven off after it has reached 50 degrees? My oven takes about 4 minutes to reach that temp and then I turn it off and pop the dough in for 30 minutes. 

[cookie1]

If I allow my oven to reach the 50 degrees  I always turn it off. Often it feels still too hot for me and I let a lot of the heat out. Another way is to remove the bottom rung of the oven, put a bowl of boiling water in, put the bread on the next shelf and close the oven door. It rises quite well that way and is moist.

[Denzelmum]

Thank you everyone!  I didn't switch off my oven, that must be it.  Will make breadcrumb from this one and make another bread tonight.

[bluesed]

Usually if a breads falls flat like that its a sign of that it has been kneaded to little.
 What happens is when you knead your bread that the gluten gets released and makes gluten strings which makes your dough able to hold the structure and the air bobbles which is produced from the process when the geist is "eating" the sugar and transform it into carbondioxide and alcohol. 

[faffa_70]

out of curiosity (asking the experts out there as my bread knowledge is next to none!!) can you over knead or work your bread doughs?

[bluesed]

Im not an expert though i have some knowledge and probably more experience then the most.

Yes you can over knead your dough. The result will be a bread that wont hold its structure similar to kneading too little.

How much you should knead your bread depends on which type of bread you are making and which type of flour you are using. Usually the more "heavy/fat" flours, like rye, spelt, integral, oats, etc, needs more kneading to develop gluten strings and absorb the water. Also the resting time is longer for those mentioned grains.

I do not use the TMX for breads but i have a stirring machine but i always finish the kneading by hand. That way i figure out if the texture is good or it needs more flour. When you follow a recipe with measures one have to consider that wheat is not just wheat and depending on which wheat, when it was harvested, how the weather was when it grew up,etc, the amount will differ. 
Also taste the dough is a good idea to see if it needs more salt.

I recommend to add the salt from the beginning as it actually delays the raising process which means that the bacteria(lactobacillus) gets more time to work and process the wheat into more digestible nutrients which in the end gives better bread and flavor.